Warp duration increase & Livable ships

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Kitchner
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Re: Warp duration increase & Livable ships

Post by Kitchner » Thu Oct 15, 2015 5:53 pm

Korras wrote:It contributes to the multiplayer part. You can use it perfectly for small pauses (toilets, getting snacks/something to drink). Additionally it gives you a small amount of time to cool the reactor, repair some stuff etc.. You might argue that you can do most of that outside of warp but that way you asume that you never warp in a problematic sittuation (aka under fire).

I agree that most jumps get skipped but I regular encounter some where not everyone is ready for skip when it is first possible. It might be something as simple as haveing a little walk with your character or repairing a slightly damaged system but the timeslot gets used so why not leave it in the game? Pressing F8 is not really that much of an effort after all.
If you're fleeing for your life then not being able to repair your ship and cool the engine down mid warp adds to the challenge. I don't know about you but I'd had to flee like that twice and it wasn't difficult at all because you're already ready to fight again as soon as you drop out of the jump.
Korras wrote: Where is it writen that FTL is instantaneous?....*words*
Uhh when I said "Like FTL" I meant "Like FTL (the game)". There's as many ways as there are writers to implement and describe "faster than light" travel, but I'm talking about a game that jumps you instantaneously from one system to the next. In that game if you want to heal up etc you do it before you jump, not during, and it makes fleeing for your life that bit more interesting, as not only are you desperately crossing your fingers you'll survive your engine charging but when you jump you may just land straight in another firefight.

This lends to an interesting gameplay mechanic where modules that let you see if an enemy is in a system near you or not are useful, because it tells you where you're about to flee to. It also means to be super safe you need to jump back to the system you just came from, but of course that doesn't let you go forward with your mission, making it a trade off.

Obviously you can feel free to disagree with me, I just feel the jump timer right now is a totally useless part of the game that isn't any use game mechanic wise besides, maybe, making it easier to run form a fight you started to lose. There aren't any arguments to suggest that time is useful for anything game mechanic wise.

What it comes down to is I'd rather game developers remove features that serve no purpose and simplify the game, whereas you may take the mindset that it isn't hurting gameplay because you can skip it, so why remove it. That's just a matter of opinion, and if you think the latter then fair enough, but I just don't think that's good game design.

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Re: Warp duration increase & Livable ships

Post by Mobiyus » Fri Oct 16, 2015 3:38 pm

Kitchner wrote:What it comes down to is I'd rather game developers remove features that serve no purpose and simplify the game, whereas you may take the mindset that it isn't hurting gameplay because you can skip it, so why remove it. That's just a matter of opinion, and if you think the latter then fair enough, but I just don't think that's good game design.
@Kitchner It seems to me that you want that feature removed because you don't see any purpose to it. I disagree with you. Long warp time does serve purposes as mentionned previously:

-Cool-down after a tough fight
-Pause for IRL stuff (ok not gameplay, but still useful nonetheless)
-Immersion for RP

These are legit purposes.

I say let us have the choice! If you want to go hard-mode and skip warp everytime for relentless fights, you can. If you want to take it slow for RP reasons, you can too. I think that's good game design.
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Re: Warp duration increase & Livable ships

Post by TeslaCuil » Fri Oct 16, 2015 5:47 pm

I should repeat that the jump DOES serve a real purpose, as a loading screen for the next area, and to ensure that the game is properly synced to all players, so removing it completely isn't really possible.

HOWEVER I do think that the amount of time spent in the jump should be a lot less (just a couple of seconds for short jumps, 1-2 minutes for the really long jumps). Then the option to skip the jump can be safely removed, as jumps aren't nearly as tedious.

It would also help if more non-combat encounters were added, so that there would be more of a chance that the next system will be safe.

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Re: Warp duration increase & Livable ships

Post by Mangalo » Fri Oct 16, 2015 10:24 pm

TeslaCuil wrote:I should repeat that the jump DOES serve a real purpose, as a loading screen for the next area, and to ensure that the game is properly synced to all players, so removing it completely isn't really possible.

HOWEVER I do think that the amount of time spent in the jump should be a lot less (just a couple of seconds for short jumps, 1-2 minutes for the really long jumps). Then the option to skip the jump can be safely removed, as jumps aren't nearly as tedious.

It would also help if more non-combat encounters were added, so that there would be more of a chance that the next system will be safe.
But why remove it anyways? The jump duration has a clear purpose: to allow for downtime and completion of tasks, like in ship repairs, or to make sure everyone is ready for leaving warp at their station. The jump times don't need to be shorter because you can just skip them anyways, why would you want to force players to wait 1-2 minutes doing nothing because they can't skip, or force them into an engagment they aren't ready for because the jump only took a few seconds? Jump progress and jump skipping are not useless, they exist for a reason.

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Re: Warp duration increase & Livable ships

Post by Kitchner » Wed Oct 21, 2015 7:42 am

Mobiyus wrote:
Kitchner wrote:What it comes down to is I'd rather game developers remove features that serve no purpose and simplify the game, whereas you may take the mindset that it isn't hurting gameplay because you can skip it, so why remove it. That's just a matter of opinion, and if you think the latter then fair enough, but I just don't think that's good game design.
@Kitchner It seems to me that you want that feature removed because you don't see any purpose to it. I disagree with you. Long warp time does serve purposes as mentionned previously:

-Cool-down after a tough fight
-Pause for IRL stuff (ok not gameplay, but still useful nonetheless)
-Immersion for RP

These are legit purposes.

I say let us have the choice! If you want to go hard-mode and skip warp everytime for relentless fights, you can. If you want to take it slow for RP reasons, you can too. I think that's good game design.
Your points are bad points though, as the jump mechanic as is just isn't needed for them, like I already explained:

"Cool down after a tough fight" isn't a reason because you can just not jump and wait for the engine to cool down, the engineer to repair the ship etc. OK so it me no if you have to flee from a tough fight and literally jump to a random system you may jump straight into a other combat encounter, but that's good as it makes the game more challenging. As someone else pointed out when there are less combat encounters there will be a better chance you'll never even experience this.

"Pause for RL stuff" isn't a reason because you can just not jump well your engineer is in the loo or whatever.

"Immersion for roleplaying" isn't a need for two reasons. Firstly I've never seen the devs say this is intended to be a roleplaying game with mechanics that specifically support roleplaying. If you want to roleplaying that's cool but that's not the point of the game. Secondly, if the devs had explained that the warp drive spools up and then slingshots you to the next system almost instantaneously (giving a bit of time to load the next system) what would you do? Say you couldn't possibly roleplaying because their jump engine doesn't work the way you'd like it to? Of course not.


So yes I am saying remove it if it doesn't have a use, and extended jump times that relate to the distance jumped really don't have a use. Have a jump delay long enough to load the next system and get rid of the skipping thing.

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Re: Warp duration increase & Livable ships

Post by Calladium » Wed Oct 21, 2015 3:12 pm

"Cool down after a tough fight" isn't a reason because you can just not jump and wait for the engine to cool down, the engineer to repair the ship etc. OK so it me no if you have to flee from a tough fight and literally jump to a random system you may jump straight into a other combat encounter, but that's good as it makes the game more challenging. As someone else pointed out when there are less combat encounters there will be a better chance you'll never even experience this.
Last time I played (it was a while ago), shields didn't recharge during warp (unless you used a shield boost) and of course you can't repair the hull. If you're outmatched then you can't "just not jump". After making a blind jump out of a tough fight the warp time lets you repair the ship and discuss a battle plan while still being battered from the last fight once you arrive because of the damage to shields and hull. I thought this was a really nice middle ground, it meant you could lick your wounds a little, but still had that sense of anxiety throughout warp because you're not arriving in tip top shape.
"Pause for RL stuff" isn't a reason because you can just not jump well your engineer is in the loo or whatever.
You can't do that if you're making a run through infected space :P
"Immersion for roleplaying" isn't a need for two reasons. Firstly I've never seen the devs say this is intended to be a roleplaying game with mechanics that specifically support roleplaying. If you want to roleplaying that's cool but that's not the point of the game. Secondly, if the devs had explained that the warp drive spools up and then slingshots you to the next system almost instantaneously (giving a bit of time to load the next system) what would you do? Say you couldn't possibly roleplaying because their jump engine doesn't work the way you'd like it to? Of course not.
It may not have been specifically stated, but this game lends itself to roleplay soooo well! Even with groups who aren't into RP there's always going to be little aspects of this (Captain handing out wine after a tough fight, everyone saying "Aye Aye" to orders, engineer speaking in a Scottish accent, etc).

IMO the best thing about the jump time is it's the perfect time to discuss what happened in the last system, what's going to happen in the next one, and anything else the crew wants to talk about. Sitting in system doing that feels more like you're wasting time because at least in warp you're going somewhere. Maybe and option to have a game that insta-skips warp would be cool, but removing the warp time really doesn't seem to serve a purpose. It can already be skipped and the short amount of time that can't be skipped serves as a load screen so if it ain't broke don't fix it. Unless removing the warp time actually adds to the gameplay why rain on everyones parade who does like it?

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Re: Warp duration increase & Livable ships

Post by Mobiyus » Wed Oct 21, 2015 4:55 pm

Kitchner wrote: Your points are bad points though, as the jump mechanic as is just isn't needed for them, like I already explained:

"Cool down after a tough fight" isn't a reason because you can just not jump and wait for the engine to cool down, the engineer to repair the ship etc. OK so it me no if you have to flee from a tough fight and literally jump to a random system you may jump straight into a other combat encounter, but that's good as it makes the game more challenging. As someone else pointed out when there are less combat encounters there will be a better chance you'll never even experience this.

"Pause for RL stuff" isn't a reason because you can just not jump well your engineer is in the loo or whatever.

"Immersion for roleplaying" isn't a need for two reasons. Firstly I've never seen the devs say this is intended to be a roleplaying game with mechanics that specifically support roleplaying. If you want to roleplaying that's cool but that's not the point of the game. Secondly, if the devs had explained that the warp drive spools up and then slingshots you to the next system almost instantaneously (giving a bit of time to load the next system) what would you do? Say you couldn't possibly roleplaying because their jump engine doesn't work the way you'd like it to? Of course not.


So yes I am saying remove it if it doesn't have a use, and extended jump times that relate to the distance jumped really don't have a use. Have a jump delay long enough to load the next system and get rid of the skipping thing.
We'll have to agree that we disagree.

-Cool down after tough fight: ''After a tough fight'' doesn't necessarly mean the target has been destroyed. As @Calladium mentionned there is situations where we can't ''just not jump''. We may want to warp out despite the target not being detroyed cuz otherwise we will die. Warp time is now great for repairing sub-systems and planning before landing on the next system. It serves a tactical purpose to be considered.

-Pause for RL stuff: See above. There's times we can't ''just not jump''. Otherwise a moot point I agree.

-Immersion for RP: ''isn't a need'' Wut? It is for me anyway and I'm sure I'm not alone. It isn't a need for you. And if there wasn't a warp time, you're right, I wouldn't say ''we can't RP!'', there are plenty of opportunities to RP elsewhere in the game (in fact, so much that it feels to me like the game has been made with RP in mind...). I would ask for warp time to be added for realism and immersion. I do not expect travel time between 2 distant points to be instantaneous IRL, same in the game. (or near instantaneous, since the game inevitably needs a couple seconds of loading)

The major point i wanted to make in my last post tho, is... to have the choice, which we have! I don't get why warp time would bother anyone when you can just skip it. As long as we have the choice, they could be one hour long for all I care.

As mentionned: ''Don't fix if it ain't broken''
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Re: Warp duration increase & Livable ships

Post by GwaziMagnum » Thu Oct 22, 2015 3:23 am

As much as Kitchner may not want to admit it, multiple uses for the warp jump have been listed.
However, I can also see where people come from with not wanting it.

So this a sort of compromise I've thought up.

1. Mandatory Warp for as long as it takes all crew members to load the next map. This way the crew is in sync and all knows what's happening. Vital for communication, especially in a game like Pulsar, even more so on Ironman.

2. Once it's loaded for all crew members *then* give the F8 button to skip.
This way no playstyle is discriminated against, and those who'd rather not wait can get straight to the action.

3. However, let it go on infinitely otherwise.
This gives the crew all the time in the world to roleplay, repair after fleeing a battle, handle RL stuff etc.
You still have the F8 to skip the instant everyone's back.

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Re: Warp duration increase & Livable ships

Post by Calladium » Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:03 am

I'm fine with the idea of the skip option as soon as everyone is synced (are we even sure this isn't already the case?), but there does need to be some cap for length of jump otherwise you could hang out in warp all day. As I said before, if it ain't broke don't fix it. Currently warp travel gives time for some ship repairs and RP while still having at least a minor sense of urgency because of the limited travel time. I personally don't think anything needs to be changed (if devs feel the need to tweak it longer or shorter that's cool), maybe an auto skip option could be added when you create the game too, but again I feel like it's a pretty minuscule issue (F8's not that hard to push)

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Re: Warp duration increase & Livable ships

Post by GwaziMagnum » Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:21 am

Eh, I can see how the pressure of limited wrap might work.

But in my 60 hours playing I've never ran into a case of the warp being too short.
We've always had more than enough time to patch things up.

However, if someone has to go handle something RL?
Suddenly the warps get too short much of the time, and that's where the option to keep it going could help crews a lot with RL concerns.
Especially for say parents who might be playing.
Even more so in Ironman mode.

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